30 thoughts on “Maria Heimsuchung”

1. I just wanted to seek clarification. I have read about the two Jesuses, and listened to the multiple cycles of the Joh lectures — love them! And yet I got a little confused with these two paragraphs in the newsletter, especially the last line:

   “In our further contemplation of the Summer Mysteries of St. John’s Tide – Thru the Spiritual Science of Rudolf Steiner we learn that the individuality we know as ‘John the Baptizer’ – was, in his 1st incarnation – Adam – the oldest human being.”

   “Thru the intervention of the Highest Spiritual Beings, a part of Adam’s Higher Self was kept back in the ‘Mother Lodge’ so that it would be protected from ‘The Fall.’ We call this pure part of Adam, ‘the Nathan Soul’. This being was able to work from the spiritual worlds in ‘the pre-earthly deeds of Christ’, to help protect humanity from further adversarial forces as we progressed thru evolution. This Nathan Soul then incarnated for the 1st time at the ‘Turning Point of Time’ as the ‘Luke Jesus’.”

   Is this saying that John the Baptizer is actually one of the Jesuses, the “Luke Jesus?” I had understood that the Jesus being had been kept back, but not that the JB being had also been kept back. Were they both kept back? Are we to understand them as being one and the same from the above writing? With the Nathan soul mentioned here, too, then does this relate to the Zarathustra, or is that just with Christ?

   It’s a bit confusing given the same/similar language is used to describe JC, or at least so I thought. Any help is greatly appreciated.

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   1. Yes, it is confusing…Before the fall a part of Adam was held back in the spiritual worlds, we call that the Nathan Soul.
      This pure soul became the Luke Jesus.

      Adam the oldest human went on to become John the Baptist, who recognized that pure part of himself that had been separated off, in the Luke Jesus.

      To go further we can see that not only did a part of Adam stay back, but a part of Eve also stayed in the Mother Lodge – Incarnating for the 1st time in the Luke Mary – who gives birth to the Nathan Soul.

      The Zarathustra or Matthew Jesus merged with the Nathan Soul at what is described in Luke 2:22-38 as The Presentation in the Temple.

      The body of the Matthew Jesus dies since his “I” went into the body of the Nathan Jesus.

      The “I” of the Matthew Jesus leaves the body just before the Baptism to allow the Christ to enter the body of the Nathan Jesus for 3 years.

      Thanks for asking for clarification. This idea of what Steiner calls ‘Spiritual Economy’ where various sheaths of individualites can live within other souls that have a similar resonace – to fulfill a special task, is deep & wide.

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      1. It was when Jesus was twelve, at the Passover Feast in Jerusalem, that the Zarathustra Ego passed over to the boy, ref. Luke 2:41-51. This is where he was found in the Temple speaking words of wisdom to the priests and elders. His parents were astonished because the boy had rarely spoken before now. This was the beginning of an eighteen year relationship between Jesus and the incorporated Zarathustra in order to prepare Jesus to receive Christ at the baptism by John when he was thirty years old. His cousin John called him, “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”, ref. John 1:29-30.

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      2. And I also want to be clear about the language being used.

         I am seeing the Matthew Jesus, the Luke Jesus, and the Nathan Jesus here…isn’t that three Jesuses? Or are Luke and Matthew being used as modifiers to indicate their gospel?

         Help!

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         1. We can say the Luke/Nathan Jesus = was the pure innocent part of Adam that was separated off before the fall & who incarnated for the first time to become the vessel for the Christ

            And the Matthew/Zarathrusta Jesus = was an ‘old soul’ Teacher of the 3 Magi who recognized the star of Bethleham as a sign that their master was coming back into incarnation.

            The ‘I” of this Matthew/Zarathrusta Jesus entered into the body of the Luke/Nathan Jesus at what is called the Presentation (Luke 2:22-38) which occured when the Luke/Nathan Jesus had his Bat Mitzvah in Jerusalem at age 12 (this is the spiritual economy I mentioned before)

            The body of the Matthew/Zarathrusta Jesus died after that

            The “I” of the Matthew/Zarathrusta Jesus left the body of the Luke/Nathan Jesus right before the Baptism to open the space for the Christ to enter…

            I hope that all lands for you…
            Let me know if you have any more Q’s.
            xox

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            1. The Presentation in the Temple occurred when the Luke (Nathan) Jesus was about 40 days old, 2:21-38, and the visit to Jerusalem at the Passover when he was twelve begins at verse 41. This is when the Soul and Spirit of the Matthew (Solomon) Jesus passed over to the boy who would eventually receive baptism by his cousin, John. Thus, Zarathustra incorporated into the sheaths of the Nathan Jesus for eighteen years, and left these sheaths when he was thirty years old. Christ then descended as a Dove, and remained upon him.

               https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+2&version=NASB1995

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            2. Right, the concepts I grasp, but I hadn’t ever heard anyone outside of Steiner’s words speak it. It was just the specificity in language that seemed to vary a bit. But it’s no matter.

               BTW…I am very much enjoying getting your newsletter!

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               1. Thanks for tuning in & for engaging with us!
                  xox

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                  1. For Lindsay:

                     Much of this trend of thought today goes back to Ash Wednesday this year, which was February 22nd. This day begins Lent, and we have a multiple of 40 day periods of expansion which leads to the present Summer Solstice. Maybe you would be interested in reviewing this thread and its comments. I know that I am liking your own newsletter, which appeared quite mysteriously in my inbox, but very much welcomed.

                     https://reverseritual.com/path-to-easter/

                  2. Hi Steve,

                     I recently got a new subscriber to my newsletter — maybe that was you? I noticed someone liked my Ash Wednesday piece, “Death Becomes You.”

                     Lent was powerful for me this year, too, as it really always is. In our frenzied times, and in the American consciousness, so go go go, so outwardly focused, so superficial, so negating of death in its real aspect, the sacred time of walking through Lent is an inverse relief of epic proportions!

                  3. Yes, that was me. I thought possibly we could converse during Hazel’s downtime, in which she attends these conferences. I have been on these blogs and forums for years, and have always espoused free communication. This year of Lent, which begins on Ash Wednesday, is notable for the fact that Lazarus was raised on February 23, 33 AD, which indicates that this festival has a secret indicator to this very day. Rather than the typical demeanor of “sack cloth and ashes”, it is really meant to be the recognition of resurrection and salvation due to Christ, and this should be the expectant attitude over the course of these forty days. It is designed to lead on from there, beginning with Palm Sunday, which was April 2nd this year. The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem.

                     I like the way you write, and it demonstrates a keen eye. Thanks for the invitation. Of course, I would like to hear the rest. I admit to being an open book, and Hazel knows that.

                  4. Being able to experience the St. John’s liturgy many times over this 4 week festival time has given me new insights into the cycle of the year – a furthering in the connection to the Father Ground of the World living in the aura of John the Baptiser forerunner for us all, & the image of the Christ pouring out to us in the ether rays. So rich.

                     “To the Father God shall stream our soul’s devoted and heart-warm thanks.”

   2. Hi Lindsay,

      I could join your list and express more of what you are listening to right now. It would be a pleasure, and especially because you are observing and asking the right questions, which is rare these days. Thanks for doing so. – Steve

      ps- I don’t know how much of Steiner you know about, but he was an objective occultist who turned his eye on Christianity as his main focal point. I have also followed this trend, and it could prove enlightening with the requisite discipline and care.

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      1. Hi Stephen,

         What I love about Steiner is that, to me, he is the greatest elucidator of the gospels, and of the Bible, of any one I have read. I love reading theology, but no one compares to Steiner in my view.

         While I’ve read — and listed to, I really love Rudolf Steiner Audio — many different books and lectures by Steiner, on various Anthroposophical topics, I’m most drawn to anything by him that concentrates on occult/esoteric Christianity. I consider myself to be an esoteric Christian, but I also just go to mainline Episcopal church, too, because there’s no Christian Community where I live, and I really treasure communion and my local church family. I cannot help but add esoteric Christianity into conversation at church like in small discussion groups, because the influence from Steiner is so central to my being, and because of my own personal spiritual experiences. It’s actually been fine when I’ve done so.

         The hardest thing for me has been to not have an Anthroposophical community. I’ve just begun to reach out online as an alternative to an in-person community. It’s lonely to not be able to talk about this stuff with others!

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         1. Hi Lindsay,

            Well then, it is good for you to be here listening to what appears to be very technical information. Yet, there is a method to this seeming madness. In maybe the very last lecture that Rudolf Steiner gave on the Nathan Soul working behind the three pre-earthly deeds of Christ, it is told how important it is for unselfishness to become the hallmark of any kind of Christ recognition. As well, we need to know exactly about all the parameters that led to the incarnation of Christ on Earth, and what had to occur in order to prepare for it. This entails the “touchy” subject of not one, but two Jesus children, which continues to flabbergast most everyone who hears about it (except anthro’s). Even then, there are fine points that need to be clarified, as you can see. Reading the contents of books and lectures is only preparatory for what must become a School of Selflessness, and this lecture will speak volumes to what needs to take place in our day and age.

            https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/ForSac_index.html

            Welcome to the club if you are so inclined, and it does appear so with your eloquent words. I, too, am a homeless soul in a lonely place and time in history, but these are meant to be the karmic conditions which are especially wrought for the Initiate in our time, and we are in a precarious situation, as we speak. The bombs are falling, and it is Life During Wartime. That is why Steiner had to shift gears when World War I shocked the world. This is when Michael was declared the Time Spirit of our age, which is the forming of the Consciousness Soul. Thus, Strength, Will, and Courage are added to the equation, which is a Trinity on a higher level.

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            1. Yes, I think this is covered in several different lecture cycles. I recall the first time I heard it, a couple of years ago, it was indeed a wholly (holy) different view than any other to be found on earth today. Often when I listen to a lecture cycle I listen to each lecture multiple times to be able to fully enter into what approaches me. Two Jesuses definitely qualifies there.

               Then when the same facts (such as two Jesuses) are presented in another, later, or entirely different lecture cycle, it offers another view in as well. The picture unfolds, its spiritual truths resonate with a familiarity — the sound of truth.

               The experience is like Steiner what references in the Hamburg John cycle when speaking about the young geometry student meeting Euclid for the first time — the student recognizes what he finds because it was first present in his soul already .

               Two Jesuses may not seem to be “in our soul” already, and it can be an arresting first hearing. But as the story unfolds, the picture there of the rich tapestry of the vast spiritual world, its ways (rather than earthly ways), and the relationship from the beginning…to the Word…to logos…to the emergence of creation…to us…it then does appear in our soul as a recognition more than as an interpretation.

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               1. Yes, I too feel it as a Recognition.
                  Thanks for these thoughts

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2. “In our further contemplation of the Summer Mysteries of St. John’s Tide – Thru the Spiritual Science of Rudolf Steiner we learn that the individuality we know as ‘John the Baptizer’ – was, in his 1st incarnation – Adam – the oldest human being.”

   According to Genesis, chapter 2, Adam is formed by the Lord God as described:

   The Creation of Man and Woman

   Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
   4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to ]cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 *Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being*. 8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; *and there He placed the man whom He had formed*. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

   In the Gospel of Luke, chapter 3, is described the genealogy of the Nathan Jesus going back 77 generations to the primordial Adam Soul, who remained Unfallen in order to subtract the fallen being who would become the first man.

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   1. Hi Hazel,

      I seem to remember that Steiner spoke quite intimately in the Luke lectures about the two cousins, Jesus and John, and how their incarnations were formed in the Mother Lodge. As such, John’s heritage was described as an “old soul”, and Jesus was described as the “youngest of young souls”. He had yet to take on a human incarnation, while John appears to have been around for a long time. When I consider this, it reminds me of a similar dichotomy that Steiner describes between Gilgamesh and Eabani, and wherein Gilgamesh is the “old soul”, and why he is the “one half god man”, while Eabani is the “young soul”, and why he is the three-quarter god man”. That is why Ishtar called forth Eabani in order to defeat Gilgamesh, but he could not do it. Push came to shove, and the irresistible force met the immovable object, and the only solution was to become friends and allies in the quest for the truth of the immortality of the soul. So, in definite respects, this Epic of Gilgamesh presages what comes later with the close unity of Jesus and John the Baptist. It proves that everything was leading, in its way, to the Christ Event at the turning point of time.

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      1. https://i0.wp.com/reverseritual.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/image-5.png?ssl=1

         The two Jesus boys were born just a few months apart, and with the Matthew Jesus being born first, he likely came at the summer solstice, with John. I see the two elderly persons as Elizabeth and Zacharias with their son, John. Mary, who is called, “The Mother” in the Gospel of John, sits with the Nathan Jesus, and Joseph does not appear at all. The Angel Gabriel bypassed Joseph, the carpenter of the house and family of David altogether. Her child was entirely of the Holy Spirit, and she remained a Virgin until dying when Jesus was twelve. But, she would return to see her son again with the Christ.

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         1. I see the Matthew Jesus as being born on Epiphany, a year or 2 before, not in the time of Herod.

            Yes at first I too thought it was Zacharias, but when I looked at other images of him he was always shown writing John’s name in a book as per the Gospel. Jospeh is usually depicted holding a staff…

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            1. The Flight to Egypt

               13 Now when they (the three Magi) had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”

               14 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. 15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.” Matthew 2

               ——-

               Would Joseph be looking down directly at Elizabeth? Would he be that old? We know about the ages of the parents of John.

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               1. Depicted is the Luke Mary & Joseph, so the Flight out of Egypt does not apply as that is the Matthew Jesus story.
                  It’s as if Elizabeth & Joseph share a prophetic secret that will unfold thru the children

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                  1. Hi Hazel,

                     We know this Raphael painting depicts the Luke Jesus and John. You had speculated about the Matthew Jesus, who is not shown here, but was born about the time of John. The flight to Egypt in order to escape Herod’s order to kill the children in the Bethlehem area concerns the Matthew Jesus.

                     Now, if you look closely at the painting, Elizabeth is gazing upward right into the eyes of the elderly man standing above her. Zacharias was a priest, who would have carried a staff:

                     5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both advanced in years. Luke 1

                  2. Hazel, I hope this isn’t one of those occasions when we simply have to agree to disagree. There was a definite pact between Zacharias and Elizabeth, and it was communicated by the Angel Gabriel to Zacharias, which proves that his being a priest enabled him to have spirit communications, although he was also human, and doubted it was possible. In other words, he questions Gabriel, and is struck speechless for his lack of faith in what amounted to a miracle.

                     Now, with Joseph the Carpenter, no interaction with Gabriel occurs at all. It is entirely with the young virgin that is told that she will bear a child by the Holy Spirit. As such, in the annals of the gospel records, this Joseph is only noted as the “supposed father of Jesus”, and a carpenter by trade. Even Steiner’s lectures on “The Fifth Gospel” give little attention to Joseph, and only says that he taught Jesus the carpentry trade, and wherein he accompanied his “father” to places where repairs of a certain pagan mystery occurred. This was the Mithras cult that had become outdated and obsolete by this time. When Jesus was 24 years old, according to “The Fifth Gospel”, his father died while he was doing a job on one of these pagan sites, and this is where he experienced the Bath Kol, or the Lament of the Jews.

                     Steiner spoke of this when he laid the foundation stone of the first Goetheanum on September 20, 1913. He spoke of how Jesus experienced the Bath Kol while laying prostrate at one of these pagan sites, where the gods no longer dwelled. This was when he was 24 years old, and Joseph died. By this time, Zarathustra had been incorporated within Jesus for twelve years, which is a Jupiter revolution. Jupiter is the planet of Wisdom, and associated with Zarathustra. Jesus would live with the words of the Bath Kol for six more years, and all seemed hopeless to him, and he wondered why he was even born. You see, he didn’t know that he was living at the midpoint of Earth evolution, and while he sensed that someone was imparting wisdom to him, and giving him encouragement, he still wondered what his mission was to be. Then, he found himself at the Jordan river, near Bethany, which was a certain distance from Nazareth. He wondered how he had gotten there. When he approached John, he saw a familiar face.

                  3. And for me a most significant aspect of this part of the story from Steiner’s 5th Gospel, was that Jesus of Nazareth after facing these trails in the world & experiencing so much pain in the fact that the Bath Kol could not any longer be heard, he goes to The Matthew Mary – the mother of the Zarathustra Jesus & unburdens his soul to her. She takes in all he says which opens her to receive the Virgin Sophia – the Mother of the Nathan Jesus who also died when the body pf the Zarathustra Jesus died, working now from the spiritual world to take in the “I” of the Zarathustra Jesus that had been dwelling within the body of the Nathan Jesus – so that this vessel could receive the Christ at the Baptism…It’s a beautiful picture of selflessness indeed.

                  4. Now I remember where I first read this — the 5th Gospel! Then later in the John cycles and, if I recall, in other lectures as well. But yes, that 5th Gospel really fleshes out a completely different side of Jesus’s path. The Bath Kol is very intense indeed!

                  5. I re-read the 5th Gospel series during the Holy Nights this year – very powerful!

                  6. It is to the credit of Joseph the carpenter that he married the mother of the Matthew Jesus after the other Joseph died. His own betrothed had died young, when Jesus was twelve. So, Jesus gains a stepmother, and four stepbrothers and two stepsisters. This is the mother that Jesus pours out his heart and soul to just before the final events leading to the Baptism. Zarathustra begins to leave the incorporated sheaths of Jesus at this time, and with the final departure occurring at the Jordan. It is said that the Dove John sees is the Zarathustra Spirit departing from Jesus, and being intercepted by Christ on the way down. This means that they met in the transition. Zarathustra sees Ahura Mazdao, and Christ blesses him, and raises his stature to the Master Jesus. His first assignment is to be an eyewitness to the events over the next three years in which Christ walked the physical Earth.

      2. Joseph is described in chapter one of the Gospel of Luke as being of the descendants of David, and in chapter two as being of the house and family of David, which means that he is in close conjunction with David in terms of reincarnation. We know that the first born child of David with Bathsheba died after seven days, and that Nathan, the prophet son of David, went to his house, and this set up the Nathan line of the house of David. We also know that Zacharias was spoken to by Gabriel, informing him that he was going to be a father. We also know that Joseph, of the Gospel of Matthew, is duly informed that his wife is to have a child by the Holy Spirit. Thus, only Joseph, of the Gospel of Luke, is left entirely uniformed of what is no less a miracle. Youc see, King David left a legacy which is hardly spoken about today, and would lead, through his other son, Solomon, to the eventual demise of the United Kingdom of Israel. This is when Elijah first comes on the scene in order to help the Hebrews as their Folk Spirit. Baal worship was becoming rampant, and both David and Solomon were involved in bringing it about. They were both convicted for murder. David for ordering the murder of Uriah the Hittite, and Solomon for conspiring to murder Hiram Abiff. By 586 BC, at the 28th generation of Abraham, the deportation to Babylon occurred, and the Hebrews were held captive again. The kingship of David, and his second son, Solomon, had failed due to the evils of vanity and jealousy. The first-born child remained behind in the spiritual worlds, until just the right moment. We know when that was.

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