Faust goes down to the Mothers

Many of the essay’s here on the RR blog take their inspiration from themes presented by the seasonal round, promoting a co-creation with divine spiritual beings. I work to tie this into the idea of Occult History in light of Anthroposophia – which reveals world karma.

Spiritual Science tells us that the current Michael epoch began in November of 1879. A time when as the human soul forces were increasingly being darkened by materialism, spiritual light began to shine into this darkness (for those who seek to see in the dark). This creates a special double-sided light/dark quality to November.

TODAY 9 November, holds a power spot in the wheel of the year. It is just after the actual astrological Crossquarter time between the Autumn Equinox & the Winter Solstice, bringing us the festival season of All-Souls Tide which open us to the spiritual world where we can more powerfully work with the dead.

Rudolf Steiner notes that on this date in history Goethe has Faust go down to the Mothers, the spiritual archetypes of existence. Mephisto -Ahriman sought to persuade Faust not to take up this poetic spiritual deed. He lied to him about the spirit light which gestates there in the darkness, & declared the spiritual world to be ‘a nothing’.

On 9 November 1888 Rudolf Steiner gave the lecture ‘Goethe as the Founder of a New Science of Aesthetics’ afterward Cistercian Priest Wilhelm Neumann told him that while he was speaking, in a flash of karmic lighting, he saw Steiner as Thomas Aquinas! This was the initial event that led Steiner to the systematic construction of his Spiritual Scientific karmic research, which he later called his “core mission”.

Larry Young

3 x’s 7 years later, Rudolf Steiner spoke of the greatest spiritual event of our time – the incarnation of Ahriman in the West. In total Steiner spoke of this event in 8 lectures, 5 of which fell in November. In 1919 he gives the most precise indication as to when this incarnation would take place: “Before even a part of the 3rd millennium will have elapsed”. One of Ahriman’s tasks is to possess human beings with the fear of the spirit.

Do we have the courage to overcome this fear – giving us the goal of recognizing the doings of this adversarial being – to see the signs of its incarnation here in America? If we take up this task in equanimity we help usher in a world-historical opportunity for the development of new spiritual capacities.  

For this we are called.


Here are some other November 9th threshold events:

9 November 2022 – “Speaking with the Stars”: The waning gibbous Moon shines with the Pleiades, Aldebaran, and Mars late these evenings.

Also TODAY 9 Nov. Uranus is in opposition with the Sun in Aries. (thanks Steve Hale)

Image result for Thomas Aquinas benozzo

 Rudolf Steiner’s Lectures on this day 


1888 – Rudolf Steiner’s ‘Aquinas experience’ – after giving a lecture on ‘Goethe as father of a new aesthetics’ the Cistercian priest Wilhelm Neumann, Steiner’s friend made this remark: “The seeds of this lecture you gave today are to be found already in Thomas Aquinas”. This opened Steiner to his earlier incarnation.

Related image

1918 – The second German Empire ends – Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany abdicates after the German Revolution, & Germany is proclaimed a Republic.

1923 – Hitler’s attempted coup in Munich

9–10 November 1938 – Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass, was a pogrom against Jews throughout Nazi Germany, carried out by SA paramilitary forces and German civilians. The German authorities looked on without intervening.  Jewish homes, hospitals, & schools were ransacked, as the attackers demolished buildings with sledgehammers.  The rioters destroyed 267 synagogues throughout Germany, Austria, & the Sudetenland, & over 7,000 Jewish businesses were either destroyed or damaged. Kristallnacht was followed by additional economic & political persecution of Jews, it is viewed by historians as part of Nazi Germany’s broader racial policy, & the beginning of the Final Solution & The Holocaust.

1989 –Fall of the Berlin Wall: East Germany opens checkpoints in the Berlin Wall, allowing its citizens to travel to West Berlin

~Hail claw in my heart
Talon of the Hawk
Bearer of animal urges…
Hail star in darkness
White spider legs dancing on a web of night
I’ve made my home within
The bitter herb I drank killed & cleansed & freed me
& yet the dark moon dragon
Still spills fire water on the wings of the dove
Stealing ashes from the Phoenix
To set my teeth on edge…
As I prepare to meet the Baba Yaga
The sun angles oblique
A golden seed
Staring at the corn
Husks rustle & blink bare
Like a scorpion sting I cling & spit
And now
The work continues…

28 thoughts on “Faust goes down to the Mothers

  1. There are a number of references in which Rudolf Steiner seeks to expose the former incarnation of Goethe as Theophrastus of the Greek era who succeeded Aristotle as leader of the Lyceum for 35 years. The reason that Steiner was somewhat vague about it; in other words, the reason that Steiner didn’t simply blurt it out, which he certainly could have done as he did with so many others of his contemporaries as seen in the Karmic Relationships, is that he did not want to draw the inference by doing so that he was the reincarnated Aristotle, which would have logically been the expected outcome. So, even here, he wants his fellowship to adduce it for themselves.

    Maybe the best reference that Steiner gives concerning Goethe is found here in a lecture in which Goethe’s desire to go to Italy is described:


    This is where Goethe at the age forty range is reintroduced to the Greek influence that has always been a part of the Roman scene. He is motivated to pick up the discourse on Faust, part II, as well as the desire to write an essay on the Metamorphosis of Plants. Yes, this lecture describes Goethe’s renewal of his former incarnation as an Athenian at the time of the elderly Plato. This is not to be missed.

    As well, we have the first lecture of Steiner’s course, “The Karma of Vocation”, which is all about Goethe’s struggle with a dual personality, or double life of the soul, which many people suffer for because we are all destined to recapitulate a former incarnation in close proximity. This is an occult law out of the principle of spiritual economy. Many of us today can attest to it as what has driven us to Anthroposophy. So, here is where Steiner further describes the unspoken relationship of Goethe to Theophrastus:


    Then, we have maybe the first indication that Goethe was formerly incarnated in the Greek era in Athens. This is where Steiner is able to further indicate that Goethe had also incarnated in the Egyptian cultural epoch, which some people somehow assume is related to Moses:


    Finally, we have the very last of the original 49 lectures of the KR series given in Dornach, and wherein both Goethe and Karl Julius Schroer as the reincarnated Plato are given attention in this last lecture:


    One other thing can be adduced about Goethe, and it relates to Marie von Sivers. He had one of those etheric copies which are described in GA 109, and after his death in 1832 this very same etheric copy passed over to Marie von Sivers. This can be proven and is the main reason why Rudolf Steiner called her a “cosmic being”. Anyone who studies the face of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe closely and then looks at the photos of Marie von Sivers can’t help but see him in her physiognomy, and maybe especially those eyes and that double chin.

  2. Hi Hazel,

    Here are two comments from last year at this time concerning the assertion of Wilhelm Neumann of the Cistercian Order about Steiner’s lecture on Goethe as the founder of a new aesthetic. Neumann sees Thomas Aquinas in the language of Steiner, which is really quite an astute judgment because behind Goethe is Theophrastus, who was the successor to Aristotle in the Lyceum for 35 years. Everything about Theophrastus speaks volumes for Goethe’s scientific thinking, as well as the literature, which is a carry over of Theophrastus’ keen study and knowledge of the several moral-character types.



    For me, it is about who Wilhelm Neumann was of significance in a former life. Indications are given. Alain de Lille in old age left the School of Chartres for the cloister of the Cistercians and communed with the spirit of Aristotle for the preparation of the Twelfth in the 13th century.

    1. I see the individuality of Marie von Shivers behind Theophrastus…
      Anyway, karmic truths can only thrive in the right way when they are received with a corresponding attitude of wonder & awe not as anything written in stone…

      1. That is only because Hans Peter van Manen has influenced you with his treatise on Marie Steiner and her place in World Karma. And he did this as a way to offset all the attention Ita Wegman was getting as being the reincarnation of Gilgamesh and Alexander the Great. The relationship between Theophrastus and Goethe is awe-inspiring when seen from the standpoint of what would be a very important formative influence in the life of Rudolf Steiner, i.e., editing Goethe’s voluminous scientific writings. And even more so, the reincarnated Plato is the one who perceived Steiner’s inherent ability to do it. Remember, it was Steiner who told of Goethe having an incarnation as a young Athenian at the time of the elderly Plato. As such, he was a sculptor by trade, but followed a philosopher. This was Aristotle, who he would eventually succeed. The Philosopher’s Stone is also the means for insight.

  3. November 9th is also when the planet Uranus reaches opposition with the Sun in the sign of Aries. Here is a fact-filled article by Deborah Byrd of EarthSky:


    It says that the Earth comes between the Sun and Uranus on November 9th. The same event will occur on December 8th when the Earth will come between the Sun and Mars in the sign of Taurus. So, here is my Question: Where does the Earth actually reside on the Ecliptic? If we can look up on any evening with a clear view and see:

    1) A partial solar eclipse in the sign of Virgo on October 25th;

    2) The waxing crescent Moon in sign of Capricorn on November 1st near Saturn;

    3) The waxing gibbous Moon near Jupiter in Pisces on November 4th;

    4) A total lunar eclipse passing through the shadow of the Earth over six hours in the early morning of November 8;

    5) Seeing Uranus reach opposition on November 9th, which makes it one of those rare opportunities to view Uranus through a telescope. Uranus also reaches perigee here, which apparently helps some for a planet that is said to be nearly 19 AU’s (Astronomical Units) away, which is 1.74 billion miles.

    If the speed of movement of the Earth is faster than the Sun, which [on average] travels 30 degrees of the ecliptic oval in 30 days, and the Moon travels 30 degrees in just 56 hours, i.e., 2-1/3 days, then what is the speed of the Earth? We look up from a seemingly very advantageous point of view somewhere on the Ecliptic, but where is it?

    Is it possible that the Earth resides in the center of the solar system and governs the Ecliptic path of the Sun, Moon, Planets? We certainly are in a position to see and cognize just about everything going on within the span of the Zodiac. Maybe through Christ something has been restored of the nature of the original posturing of Man as Lord of the Earth by the decree of the Father God of the Seven Days of Creation. Thus, it is possible that Christ has made the human species, now individualized from the original condition, the rightful Lord of the Ecliptic.

    1. Thanks for adding to the picture of 9 Nov. to include Uranus in opposition with the Sun in Aries.
      Perhaps it’s time we met the Ptolemaic model again with consciousness

          1. It is interesting to remember that Osiris was cut into fourteen pieces by Typhon, his brother, and that the Old Isis went looking and retrieved the pieces. This becomes an important consideration when we reflect upon the fourteen days and corresponding phases of the New Moon of October 25th in the sign of Virgo, which also gave a partial solar eclipse, until November 8th, when the Full Moon also produced a total lunar eclipse. Exactly 14 days.

            What if it can be shown that the New Isis is whole and not dismembered at all. Her power protects her as the scion of the Consciousness Soul Age, and wherein she encourages the lifting of the former veil of the Intellectual Soul Age. At present, she resides wholly ensconced within the constellation/sign of Aquarius, and just looking and hoping for the day when mechanistic-materialistic astronomy gets blown up and revealed for what it is, which is nonsense.

            One of the items that Deborah Byrd covers in her article on the Uranus opposition is the image of Uranus taken back on January 14, 1986, when Voyager 2 did a flyby of the planet:


            Now, is it really possible for a space ship constructed by human hands to travel 1.74 billion miles in order to pass by the planet Uranus? We heard of a similar occurrence with the Pluto flyby of 2015, and this was after Pluto had been downgraded as a major planet. Discovered in 1930, and this is why Steiner never spoke about Pluto, it was determined by modern mechanistic-materialistic astronomy that Pluto was a mere planetoid, even though the images brought back to earth of the Pluto flyby of 2015 were quite impressive. Does anybody remember this?

            1. Thanks for this picture of Isis & the connection with the 14 days!

              Yes I have always taken everything from NASA with a grain of salt, all those AI generated photos…I don’t know

  4. Dear Hazel,

    There is significant evidence to indicate that Thomas Aquinas was duly prepared to resurrect Aristotle in the 13th century in preparation for the birth of Christian Rosenkreutz. As such, he is to be seen as the twelfth in the so-called “Collegium of Twelve”. These two lectures, separated by twelve years, describe the dynamics involved.



    Last year at this time we had an interesting discussion concerning this very same matter of Neumann declaring Steiner’s lecture on Goethe’s aesthetics as being contained in Aquinas. Yet, while this seems persuasive for Steiner being the reincarnation of Aristotle, it does not necessarily follow that Aristotle would incarnate again as Aquinas. Rather, it is much more likely that Thomas Aquinas, whose incarnation was prepared by Alain de Lille of the School of Chartres, as the second lecture describes, and who becomes the “Twelfth” in the Collegium of Twelve, as the first lecture describes, is indicating that Aristotle reincarnated as Christian Rosenkreutz. Yet, in order for that to be possible, Aristotle would have had to be incarnated at the time of Christ.

    What if it can be shown that this, in fact, did occur? Aristotle and Alexander made one final incarnation together as an alliance of togetherness; a symbiotic relationship of sorts before going there separate ways, yet always supporting the aims of spiritual evolution in the earth sphere. They reincarnated one last time together at the time of Christ. This should help isolate who Aristotle was born as.

    1. This lecture series does seem to detail Steiner’s particularly intimate connection with the Aristotle personality. This is just one example, but for me this comes off as a recapitulation. To be specific, I honestly feel that Steiner’s scientific writings are not understood. Moreover, when he describes the Eabani personality, you could easily insert Steiner’s name in place.

      World History in the Light of Anthroposophy, lecture IV

      “The significance of this moment in the history of Macedonia reaches on the one hand far back into the past, and on the other hand far on into the future. And it is essential to bear in mind how something of a world-tragedy hangs over all that has to do with Aristotle and Alexander. Even externally the tragedy comes to light. It shows itself in this, my dear friends. Owing to peculiar circumstances — circumstances that were fateful for the history of the world — only the smallest part of the writings of Aristotle have come into Western Europe, and there been further studied and preserved by the Church. In point of fact it is only the writings that deal with logic or are clothed in logical form.
      A serious study, however, of the little that is preserved of Aristotle’s scientific writings will show what a powerful vision he still had of the connection of the whole Cosmos with the human being.”

      There are more passages worthy of quoting here, but for now just sharing one. At any rate, there is one major implication here that I feel has not been addressed (to my knowledge)… and that has to do with ‘who’ is the individual who was known as Gilgamesh/Moses/Alexander? I understand Ita Wegman is accepted as the incarnation. But after reading GA233, it doesn’t make sense. The reason is, is that the Gilgamesh personality (of you will) take these teaching ‘outwardly’ to the rest of the world – or known world, I suppose. And also, from implications regarding how Eabani still worked with Gilgamesh even after he had passed… it is entirely possible that the Gilgamesh personality is still yet to incarnate, and perhaps soon. I am saying this, because Steiner did not spread Anthroposophy as far as wide as he had hoped. He did get rather far, but his writing are rather difficult to come across unless you’ve heard of him. Even more so, even within the Anthroposophical commmnity, I’m not so certain his scientific views are very much understood. I am not shaming anyone, but what I am suggesting is that we still have yet to see that counter part to Steiner… which is all about fruition/action – which in Alexander’s case, was brought through conquest. Or Moses, through emancipation. No one fits the bill for this, at least no one known. Yet, our current time is exactly the perfect time for such a personality to come about. Why? Because through history, these two have worked together at times when cultural epochs are demarcated – either the beginning of one or the end. We clearly see the endings of the 5th epoch in sight.

      Of course, I am bringing a perspective on this. But I find it rather difficult to ‘unsee’ this, upon taking the time to meditate on this high likelihood.

      And that is just the thing to wonder. Is the Anthroposophical community even open enough to even let that kind of possibility in? If there truly was an Alexander during Steiner’s time, there wouldn’t have been such a decline after his death. This is why I do believe that Steiner was ultimately reaching an audience that has not incarnated yet.

      1. There is much in those evening lectures from the Holy Nights of the Christmas Conference, as you mentioned…I have worked with them for many years. They give many clues.

        That point about the “world-tragedy hangs over all that has to do with Aristotle and Alexander” can certainly be applied to the Steiner / Wegman incarnation especially in view of the connection with Marie who was also there as Theophrastus, & who fought with Wegman over the writings of Steiner after his death…
        Alexander the Great made mistakes including murder that came from an untamed rage, which brought in some heavy karma – which played out in his incarnation as Wegman – which is one of the reasons why many in the original Vorstand rejected her – which caused so much trouble for the society after Steiner death…

        I don’t think the individuality of Moses has a connection with Gilgamesh/ Alexander. I can see Moses connected to Goethe…

        What’s interesting is that these names keep getting intertwined…

        It reminds me of a story that Steiner told of how one of his esoteric pupils saw Steiner as a certain famous figure in history. She was quite clear of it after much meditation & was known to have a psychic ability. When she asked Steiner he said no, that was not him; but then he asked her what day & time she was getting this image, which lead him to explain that at that time he was doing karmic research on that very same individuality. He warned her that it was very tricky to pin these things down with clarity.

        Kyle I agree with your idea that other relative individualities of importance to Steiner & to Anthroposophy are yet to incarnate. But I also think many have. That they are here as young people in the world now, trying to find themselves & each other…The Platonists & the Aristotelians are both incarnated at the same time – for the time is at hand.

        1. Hazel, you made an important reference to the advancement in Steiner’s thinking and perception from his lecture/essay on “Goethe as the Father of a New Aesthetic” in 1888 to his revelations about Ahriman’s actual physical incarnation in the West, which was first stated some 31 years later in November 1919, ref. GA 194. Yet, it is the three lectures below from five years prior to 1919 that Steiner depicts Lucifer and Ahriman in the raw form in which they were brought forth in order to serve the progressive evolution of humanity. As such, and you will find this stated again and again in these three lectures, Lucifer and Ahriman are not by nature inimical to humanity. In other words, they have been brought forward as spiritual beings who can provide important influences in the human astral and etheric bodies, and which by extension also influence the Sentient Soul, and the Intellectual Soul in this Earth period of evolution.

          It is these three lectures that gave Rudolf Steiner the needed impression for his envisioning of how the Representative of Man should be depicted. Only the anti-Christ, Sorath, can reverse these true complementary tendencies of Lucifer and Ahriman to something bad, and this is what we as humanity today are experiencing in a kind of extreme way. These three lectures can form a real power for the soul in seeing how intricate is the complexity of what human evolution has become for achieving the ultimate goal for the maximum good possible.


          1. O yes, Lucie & Ahri are doing their work to strengthen us, no doubt.

            My daughter & I are doing a study together right now working with Steiner’s amazing work “The Spiritual Guidance of the Individual & of Humanity” where it is clear how the Luciferic Beings helped create civilizations, bringing culture & art. He even mentions Greek heroes who were actual Luciferic beings in human form. And of course in our time now we know the gifts of technology come from Ahriman…

            It is important for us to know that the forces of evil are very strong in the world – and unfortunately those adversarial helpers in the world take spiritual matters much more seriously than most anthro-heads do! we must awaken to our conscience, & they are the prod!

            I think of the reality of the words that Goethe put into the mouth of Mephistopheles – When asked by Faust who he is, Mephisto-Ahriman answers: “Part of that force that always wills the evil and always produces the good.”

            Pointing out that we must be awake to the incarnation of Ahriman does not negate these truths, it enhances them because then we are conscious of these workings.

            The imagination given in the lectures you mention, of that small center in the heart – that free space where Lucifer or Ahriman can’t enter – is a powerful tool – it is here that the Christ impulse must be cultivated so that we can hold the balance between these polarizing forces.

            Sorat is, like you say a, entirely different kind of desstructive force. It’s interesting, I tried to bring that point into a fb conversation & folks didn’t want to go there. But we know ignorance or denial is not bliss, but oblivion.

            1. It is interesting that I have been hearing how difficult it is to make any kind of relevant progress on fb groups that are concerned with anthroposophy, and maybe especially the true nature of Sorath and what he seeks to achieve. Yet, to think that Sorath as the factor imposed into earth evolution in seeking for its ultimate destruction, and that it has all been arranged by Manes in the quest for achieving the ultimate good is a mind-boggling concept in its own right. Evil can only be overcome by acts of kindness in a consistent pressure, which is a quality of the earth, in convincing Sorath to yield to a better way of seeing things, and even Sorath knows this is his purpose for being here. It is we humans that need to better grasp what Manichaeism as a very subtle science means to achieve in the overall scheme of what is no less than an earth evolution that has been changed and expanded over the original Seven Days of Creation.


              Manes even initiated Christian Rosenkreutz in 1459 in order to help in the struggle to bring the new gnosis to earth as the only viable means to succeed in the eventual defeat of Evil. Rudolf Steiner tells us that in the second biographical sketch submitted to Edouard Schure in writing, c. September 1907.

              1. The trials will always be there to test us. We have to continue to grow & adapt. We are all meant to transform & evolve, including the adversarial beings.

        2. I’ve been thinking about your reply these past few days, Hazel. One thing came to mind was the issue of unfulfilled destiny – or mission (I may not be using the proper term). So yes, that is no question many individuals were incarnated during Steiner’s time who were ‘movers and shakers’. But I was reminded how he had said to someone (was it Stein?), that they will see each other in America in 80 years or something. I guess what my train of thought here is, is that enough time has passed by where quick reincarnations can occur.

          Your posts are so synchronistic, that I know you feel something in the air. It is an interesting thing to consider how on one hand, it is important to understand karma and even go as far as knowing yourself to the extent of several incarnations… as in, knowing your true “I” that is essentially immortal; the other hand, it is also a kind of ‘law’ to not speak about your own incarnations to anyone else. Then it becomes an ordeal of playing catch up, after the fact, when that individual incarnation is already gone…. We can speak openly about who they were, I suppose.

          But for those that are alive, I still have yet to wrap my head around this. Because we cannot go claiming so and so is this person, or even claiming we are such and such a person. And worse, it is even more erroneous for one to think they are someone they are not, because that gets in the way of their true mission on earth, as being the individual “I” that they are.

          Then top off all of this with etheric/astral copies, described in the Spiritual Economy lectures given by Steiner, and there are a whole other set of factors to consider.

          This is what I understand (if I understand this correctly), that people can definitely take on etheric and astral copies of such individuals, while all the same ‘not’ actual being that individual. So I found it an interesting remark by Steiner, in the GA225 lectures, he would describe at a time there were many ‘little’ Jacob Boemes around.

          What this can imply, then, that someone such as Gilgamesh, can have copies to other Individuals who carry on a Gilgamesh impulse… or etheric/astral body or essence, I suppose.

          I mean, how many people have taken on Initiatory experiences of the like of Gilgamesh? Or even Pythagoras, CR… traveling East, then back West, or the reverse, Easterners going West then back to the East? Probably many!

          So it is interesting to contemplate who actually are the Platonists and Aristotelians, now, today. What is the First Cause that came before Plato and Aristotle anyway? Then no doubt we are going back to Manes, if we trace back far enough. But further along past Aristotles and Plato’s time are the Greek ‘Patron Saints’ of Chartres: Pythagoras, Virgil, Euclid, Ptolemy, etc… then the teachers of Chartres themselves.

          These are many individuals, many different streams, and many possibilities for ‘copies’ to be passed on… i.e. little Virgils, and so on…

          Now, the big question is… when one individual feels an affinity to such and such a personality, what then do they do with that? Is that part of one’s mission, then… to take up a torch if they feel drawn to such personalities? Is it simply explained as examples for one to learn from?

          I just wonder about this. Because if one feels they are a Platonist, or rather an Aristotelian… or both… what to make of it? Because it feels like, the more along we go in our current time and epoch, our inner understanding and our inner life almost trumps our external life. In that respect, does it really matter what we do externally? Because it is still very vague to me how a joining of Aristotelian/Platonist streams can actually happen. I suppose one way is the revival of the Dialectic, for starters… because the only way we can actually know each other is to really engage with one another. After that, who knows what can come about when we are all inspiring each other in ways that are not so clear now.

          1. Hi KJ – I am totally into the notion that many in Steiner’s time are coming, or are already reincarnated on earth now…Steiner might perhaps be a girl of 17 going to a Waldorf school in Cali right now…

            There is no doubt that we are living in a powerfully charged atmosphere like the way the air is after a lightning strike, or at times like when a garbage truck goes by…a special swirling chaos that comes when we are waiting for the other shoe to drop (Ahriman’s incarnation…?) or when we are aware that the sword of Damocles is suspended by a single hair above our collective heads…

            Yes & there’s so much confusion in our karmic streams! – That’s why Steiner wanted us to try & go back into our knowing of ourselves to discern our initial incarnating impulse. Not to put us in a box, but so that we can stand on a firm foundation of our knowing which then enables us to reach across the aisle to know the other. This is the only way for Cain & Abel to do the great work, each providing their special gifts that bring creation into wholeness…to not only build the Temple but to embody that unity inwardly so that there are no divisions, only cooperation.

            And of course as you intimated, there are more than “2 Streams” – Besides the Rosicrucian stream connected to Lemuria & the Southern Mysteries & the alchemical metabolic forces; We have the Northern Mysteries – The Vidar Stream originating during Hyperborea – The Norse/Germanic/Aryan Stream; Then in the East – The pre-Christian Grail Stream – the post Atlantean mysteries of India, Persia, Chaldea; & then we have the Arthur Stream in the West – Hibernia / the Celtic-Christianity coming from the Solar Oracle of Atlantis; & in the center we are called to create the convergence – of the New mysteries of Parzival – which we can see renewed in the refounding of the Christmas Conference by Rudolf Steiner…

            And you are right humanity is rift with etheric/astral copies – some good, like the initiates you mentioned, & others copies consisting of non-human sub-nature entities or other adversarial powers seeking to dehumanize us…

            The way I see it when we feel an affinity (or in the above cases an antipathy) to a personality, or a stream, it is a clue – which needs discernment to clarify. But it is important to explore these hunches, these attractions…For Yes, there is much to learn about ourselves in that search…

            The merging of the streams must happen – that is our task, just as the Christ brought the 2 streams together to accomplish his deed, we must do the same.

            And YES we must have dialogue, within our inner life as well as with each other.

            Thanks for doing this work with me…

            1. Wow to these two comments, Kyle and Hazel. This could be the start of a new Dialectic that Kyle has been envisioning as needed. Of course, the new needs to recapture the old, which was especially keen in the Greek era of the Fourth Cultural epoch. It is the format and platform that must be better than Facebook’s tendency to advertise over the efforts to be informative about a sacred science. Yes, Kyle, as the story goes, when Steiner was in England I think in the first trip in April 1922, he was driving with WJ Stein down a London street and made the comment: “In 80 years I will be incarnated in America”. That means 2002. But, also to be considered is what Steiner told his listening audience in the Karma of the Anthroposophical Movement lectures, ref. volume III, GA237. He said there somewhere that many of this movement, including himself would reincarnate by the end of the 20th century. So, go figure what it all means because people are interested in this stuff and it won’t go away for any lesser cause in today’s technocratic world of mind-exhausting numbness.

              1. The danger is that folks become dogmatic in their speculative opinions on these highly esoteric matters. We must take these as indications, pointers that keep us alert to the clues around us, without getting stuck or arguing over written in stone judgements…As Steiner says in ‘The Psychology of Body, Mind & Soul’ Judging is meant to be an active verb. “Every aspect of the soul is either a making of judgements, or a life in love or hate. Basically these are the only concepts that pertain to the soul…Love & hate are continually active in our soul life. The same is true of judging. You are continually judging & continually experiencing love & hate every moment of your waking soul life…” At first this seemed too narrow, but as I think about it & discern it in my experience, these concepts ring true.

                So does the statement made by Steiner that those that were with him 100 years ago would be here now. We must take advantage of this Michael Age to bring forth Anthroposophy in the world at this time when the incarnation of Ahriman is immanent.

              2. It surely is something to think about, the function of evil for the benefit of humanity’s evolution. It is as though, under stress or pressure, it can either make us give in or ‘yoke’ the ultimate moral good to light. Many epics have this dynamic, for you wouldn’t be able to see the protagonist exercise his/her ‘goodness’ or moral capacity without an antagonist (adversarial forces) present to ‘necessitate’ it.

                And it really is interesting to see Lucifer and Ahriman as beneficial to our Earth development – aside that ‘they’ can also be forces of evil if in an extreme context, which seems to happen quite a bit.

                We already see the benefits of Lucifer, as noted, in Arts, language, etc… but we have yet to see the true beneficial fruits from Ahriman. It is there, but since the beginning of the 20th century, things have progressed so fast that in regards to technology, not many people question ‘what is necessary’ versus ‘I can do this just because I can – if that makes sense. And with the latter – ‘I can do this because I can’ – the issue of morality or ethics is completely ignored… and that largely is the issue. With Lucifer, the incarnation came before Christ, and had time to percolate and develops through history in a more unconscious natural way. With Ahriman, it’s the opposite… coming after Christ, we can’t let the Ahriman impulse work unconsciously.

                There really is no way to truly regulate that, and surely not by a law. How can you tell anyone, who comes up with some new technology – is it worth it? Is it necessary? What’s is the purpose of it? In many cases, the purpose, the use of it usually go towards means that are ultimately destructive. That’s a big part of that issue, and I suppose that is the Sorathic influence.

                I personally think technology, in and of itself, is not inherently a bad thing. I just don’t think we have achieved what we ‘could’ achieve with it yet. And it has very little to do with how it’s being used now – for a larger part.

                If it really comes down to a question of ‘how do we manipulate the material world’ then it should follow with ‘why should we manipulate the material world?’ Then it can possibly be reasoned in conjunction with the issue of ‘freedom’ in consciousness… does it serve that purpose?

              3. Kyle, I really appreciate your thoughts on the difference between the incarnation of Lucifer with its contributions to art & civilization, & the impending incarnation & current technocratic rule of Ahrimanic forces currently working in the world. It is imperative as you say to be conscious of these forces. The connection with Sorat is also extremely relevant.

                I agree that we can’t shun the modern world with all its devious devices, & yet I do think how it is used does make a difference. Can we spiritualize this realm with our Christic Intentions? – Yes, I believe to some extent we most certainly can & must use our intentions to implement a wise conscious practice therein.

                Perhaps the question is not one of a slavish manipulation but a intentional, free co-creative cooperation…?

              4. Why is it that among anthroposophists the tendency is to think that Ahriman has yet to incarnate? If the whole trend of Ahriman’s imposition into human affairs is already here, then why look for an individual personage in human form? We need to think “outside the box”, or what is the good of anthroposophy! If ever-increasing high grade technology is already proof of Steiner’s prediction in his last “Leading Thought” in which he warns of the effects of sinking into sub-nature, then it seems to me that since that last thought was first published on April 12, 1925, that the whole enterprise of an overall ahrimanic rulership has become of paramount concern. Ahriman as an individual distinction can be looked upon as so many ‘anti-popes’. The latest favorite for election, and for a number of years now is Vladimir Putin.

                Hazel, you nail it when you say:

                “I agree that we can’t shun the modern world with all its devious devices, & yet I do think how it is used does make a difference.”

                This is very good because it speaks to the sentiments of Zarathustra who saw that the world’s field of activity needed to accept the Maya that the Holy Rishis warned about. As such, we have to encourage whatever comes forth next, and find the good in it. This is a Manichean principle and you gave an even better one more recently. I can find it if interested.

              5. Good point Steve. And yet it is important to recognize the anti-popes. For me the incarnation is different from people like Putin (or others, fill in the blank_____) who are agents of Ahriman – possessed by these forces to prepare the way for the incarnation which as Steiner says will give people a false clairvoyance that isolates them from spiritual reality.

                But hey maybe the thinking outside the box IS that it is not just 1 individual as you say, but many elite ‘leaders’ with Ahriman working thru them…We are certainly seeing these adversarial forces moving in every sphere of life on earth: a completely corrupt rights realm, in bed with economics entirely motivated by greed, & the Cultural realm totality perverted – The weaponization of the medicine, with the medical high priests controlling society, the dumbing down & materialim of the educational system, the dogma of religion…etc…

                Certainly the only hope is to apply The Manichean principle. But in order to do that with Ahriman we must join together, we can’t possibly do it as lone isolated individuals. And we need to be worthy enough that the mighty spiritual beings will work with us – for without Christ-Sophia-Michael we can never bring love & freedom to the earth.

              6. Like being an Agent of Beneficial Change. This what one of my early mentors taught at Boeing. How to make a better world by coaxing people to overcome their fear by overcoming their resistance to the very change that they want. Change is a part of evolution and can be very good.

              7. Change is the only constant. It is up to us to turn it toward the good.

                “The world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.”
                ― Albert Einstein

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